"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
10/17/2017 at 12:55 • Filed to: planelopnik
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"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
10/17/2017 at 12:55 • Filed to: planelopnik | 6
| 27 |
But more importantly, Airbus plans to assemble aircraft for U.S. customers alongside its !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! family in Mobile, Alabama, circumventing almost 300% in duties the U.S. government proposes imposing on C Series aircraft imported from Canada in response to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ’s anti-dumping charges.
Check and mate.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
whoarder is tellurium
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 13:01 |
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Scarebus be like...
someassemblyrequired
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 13:07 |
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People are criticizing the price, but 50% of a profitable aircraft program is a lot more than 100% of a failed one.
Mercedes Streeter
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 13:08 |
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Airbus and Bombardier right now:
Jayhawk Jake
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 13:11 |
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What? From the article:
“No money will change hands on completion of the deal, and no debt will be assumed by CSALP. Airbus will enter commercial agreements covering sales and marketing, procurement management and customer support. Bombardier will continue with its existing C Series investment plan, providing up to $350 million in the first year and a combined $350 million over the next two years.”
To put it bluntly, this is horseshit. Bombardier is just handing Airbus majority ownership of a multi-billion dollar asset. Whatever sales and marketing activities Airbus is providing is not worth billions . Isn’t like 25% or more of Airbus government owned? Along with the Canadian government’s stake in Bombardier, this just reeks of unfair competition in the US.
Whether or not you agree with the tariffs levied on the CSeries by the US, this is a shady and shitty non-competitive move. Boeing will sue for sure, and I think they should.
Wacko
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 13:12 |
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this is what Airbus/Bombardier does when Boeing cries like a little bitch.
I still can’t get over the fact that Boeing complained about Bombardier and the 6B from Canadian governments when Boeing Got 64B between 2000-2014 from Uncle Sam.
This is a Stupid move Boeing and you know it.
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ttyymmnn
> Wacko
10/17/2017 at 13:21 |
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And particularly puzzling since Boeing offers nothing comparable to the CSeries.
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ttyymmnn
> Jayhawk Jake
10/17/2017 at 13:22 |
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Some commenters I read elsewhere opined that Airbus’s long game is to take over the CSeries for itself.
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someassemblyrequired
> Jayhawk Jake
10/17/2017 at 13:27 |
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Boeing messed with a cornered animal, and it ended badly. They’ve lost a bunch of defense business in Canada and the U.K., pissed off Delta when it’s shopping for new narrow body airplanes, and super sized what would have been a niche airplane. If they had have put similar effort into a cleansheet narrow body instead of playing lawyer to protect the 737, they would have been far better off. Boeing is badly run right now and it deserves all of this.
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Mercedes Streeter
> Jayhawk Jake
10/17/2017 at 13:29 |
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It’s more symbolic than anything. Boeing tried to use Congress to destroy Bombardier because Boeing cannot compete with Bombardier’s prices. In response, Bombardier joined forces with Airbus to give Boeing a massive middle finger.
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Jayhawk Jake
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 13:40 |
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Sure, they would love that. Heck, I would too. A free $6 billion airplane program that fills a gap in my product offering?! Sign me up.
To me this seems bad for the industry. Airbus gets a huge asset which will enable them to compete more strongly in other markets. No, Boeing doesn’t have a plane in that market right now, but now they would have to play catch up with Airbus who was just handed the product. Embraer gets the shortest straw because now the CSeries becomes a genuine threat to the EJets with Airbus’s backing.
The tariff that came as a result of Boeing complaining about the C-Series was absurd. But this is pretty insane.
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Jayhawk Jake
> Mercedes Streeter
10/17/2017 at 13:43 |
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Boeing can’t compete with Bombardier’s prices because Bombardier can’t compete without government support. Boeing also doesn’t compete directly with Bombardier, so they really shouldn’t have pushed the issue in that market space. Embraer has played similar games in the business jet industry, offering massive discounts on Phenoms to undercut Citation pricing and build market share. Bombardier has done so too with Learjet, but not as much.
Ash78, voting early and often
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 13:44 |
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That Airbus plant is another one of our “Red State whargarble tax subsidies bad deal!” that has worked out pretty damned well so far. The Deep South is really building a critical mass of modern manufacturing and engineering talent, which reduces brain drain and improves our economies in areas that need it most.
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Jayhawk Jake
> someassemblyrequired
10/17/2017 at 13:48 |
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Airbus didn’t put effort into a narrow body either, but now they got one for a dollar.
The legal fight leading to the tariff was a poor decision. It’s surprising that the tariff happened because Boeing genuinely did not compete in that market space. It’s a creative move by Bombardier and Airbus for sure, and I’m not sure if legally Boeing or Embraer can do anything about it.
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Mercedes Streeter
> Jayhawk Jake
10/17/2017 at 13:54 |
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Yeah, this whole thing is a mess. I’m with #teamnobody because it doesn’t seem like anyone even has any truly good intentions in this lol.
Chariotoflove
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 13:58 |
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So then this is good for American workers because it brings more jobs to the Alabama plant?
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ttyymmnn
> Chariotoflove
10/17/2017 at 14:05 |
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Good for America, bad for Boeing. Trump and his isolationist buddies are on the wrong side of history.
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someassemblyrequired
> Jayhawk Jake
10/17/2017 at 14:21 |
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Yeah but Bombardier was getting lousy deals from suppliers - so they are getting clout and marketing from Airbus for nothing . Remember too that the Province of Quebec and the Caisse Populaire own a big chunk of the program. Their interest is in maintaining jobs in Montreal, and if the choice is between the program folding up or succeeding, the choice is obvious, since they’ve already invested significant amounts into the program.
In order for tariffs to work, you have to import something more than technical drawings, and with more than 50% US content they just needed to stand up an assembly line stateside. Turns out they didn’t have the cash or credit to do that, so enter Airbus.
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Chariotoflove
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 15:18 |
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But this isolationist policy ended up bringing jerbs to Americans. I don’t know how much blame goes to Trump for this specific case, but I bet he finds a way to take credit for the outcome when the time comes. ;)
Boeing, like all corporate entities, is like a teenager. They bitch that everything’s not fair, but they’ll survive just fine, and having to just do better work to compete will benefit them in the long run.
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Wacko
> ttyymmnn
10/17/2017 at 15:57 |
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Hey Boeing
How do like these Chemtrails?
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Jayhawk Jake
> someassemblyrequired
10/17/2017 at 16:39 |
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The concern I have is does this move actually benefit Montreal and the province of Quebec after they invested? I think the most recent investment was 1 billion and Quebec held (according to Aviation Week) 38%. Now Airbus, with zero dollars invested, owns 50.01% while Quebec owns 19%.
Airbus will invest *something* in terms of marketing, sales, and product support, as well as manufacturing (presumably, I’m not convinced this will actually happen), but Quebec just saw its return get cut down significantly unless we assume the program was going to fail completely without Airbus.
Long term the deal allows for a complete Airbus buyout in 7 years. If it’s even marginally successful, and it’ll probably take at least 1 or 2 years for US production to begin earnestly, Airbus will absolutely buy out the program. So much for long term employment in Montreal...
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Jayhawk Jake
> Chariotoflove
10/17/2017 at 16:47 |
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It potentially brings jobs to Airbus in the US, but potentially takes away jobs from Boeing and Embraer. Embraer doesn’t currently produce commercial aircraft in the US, but if there was any hope they would that’s likely gone. And unless Boeing was secretly deep into development on a narrow body for this market the chances of them actually creating one now are likely dead.
Long term it’ll be interesting to see what this means for Bombardier. They do have quite a few employees in the US still, and while immediately I don’t think they will be affected significantly if Airbus eventually purchases the C-Series completely that might leave a revenue gap for Bombardier on the whole.
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Chariotoflove
> Jayhawk Jake
10/17/2017 at 16:52 |
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Well in the short term, it sounds like Boeing and Embraer won’t lose US jobs forth reason you mentioned. Long-term, who knows? I certainly don’t.
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someassemblyrequired
> Jayhawk Jake
10/17/2017 at 21:33 |
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Yeah from what I’ve heard, only C-Series airplanes that will be delivered to US airlines will be assembled in Mobile. Remaining aircraft will still be assembled at Mirabel. I think making further sales would have been difficult until this was resolved without top cover from Airbus or some financing for a second line.
I think the other owners of the C-Series program wanted to ensure the program continued to a profitable state, and were willing to concede some returns to ensure that happened. I think you are correct that Airbus will definitely exercise its option to buy the program but vs a collapse that’s a problem that’s now moved further out on the timeline, plus a lot of the supply chain in Montreal will still be keyed into the program, even if Bombardier is bought out.
marimvibe, new packaging, same great taste
> Jayhawk Jake
10/18/2017 at 01:07 |
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http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article9095093.html
Nobody competes without government support in this business, though. Airliners are massive exports for any country that makes them, that Boeing gets tax breaks instead of paying taxes then getting loans is kinda just semantics.
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marimvibe, new packaging, same great taste
> Chariotoflove
10/18/2017 at 01:10 |
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A few hundred line assembly jobs vs. supporting all of Boeing’s U.S. based engineers and component manufacturing, on top of assembly? I mean, we don’t know what the line actually looks like yet - they don’t need the capacity of a second line beyond their brand new one in Mirabel. Would a simple completion center qualify as final assembly to get around the tariff?
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Chariotoflove
> marimvibe, new packaging, same great taste
10/18/2017 at 11:13 |
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I dunno, but by all accounts, Boeing wasn’t going to get into that part of the market anyway.
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marimvibe, new packaging, same great taste
> Chariotoflove
10/18/2017 at 11:59 |
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Not for the CS100, but the CS300 is a direct competitor to the 737-7MAX